Now that the headline has caught your attention...
...The Daily Telegraph reports here on two lesbian women who went on a honeymoon trip after their homosexual 'wedding' and had a bad time because they were treated badly on account of their being two women who married each other. They are referring to their bad time in the Dominican Republic as Holiday Hell. Some holiday! Some hell!
One of the pair grumbled, "They just didn't treat us like everybody else!" Errr. The fact of the matter is homosexual couples are not "like everybody else" they're attempting to be 'married' when human history and human biology clearly indicate that marriage is between a man and a woman. A key fits into a lock to open a door. A lock does not fit into a lock--if you catch my meaning.
When homosexual couples claim that they "are like everyone else" it's simply a lie. They might believe the lie, and sincerely propose the lie. They may enact legislation to make the lie acceptable. They might sue those who refuse the lie. They may punish those who do not accept the lie. Indeed the whole world may rally around to proclaim the lie and persecute those who refuse to accept it.
But it is still a lie.
you tell'em Father
ReplyDelete"When homosexual couples claim that they "are like everyone else" it's simply a lie. They might believe the lie, and sincerely propose the lie."
ReplyDeleteI'd like to stand on your head and not take my foot off until I'd squeezed some sense in to it.
Mildred, even then..................it would still be a lie. :)
ReplyDeleteWow, Mildred, never thought of that before. I guess Father's wrong, then.
ReplyDeleteKnow ye that the LORD he is God: it is he that hath made us, and not we ourselves.
ReplyDeleteWhen I was a child, I thought that this was a statement about primordial history. As an adult, though, I now see that it is about much more than that. We do not get to choose the WHAT of what we are. So if some unfortunate man wishes he had been born as a tiger, that's too bad for him; he is still a man, not a tiger, no matter how many alarming cosmetic surgeries he has. The same holds true for men who wish they were women or women who wish they were men; they may mutilate themselves, but they cannot change what they really are, because "it is He that hath made us, and not we ourselves."
Get ready for the hate posts Father. They will be a coming. And
ReplyDeleteGod forbid they should post your blog on some atheist blog, you will
get it from the pro-choice, pro-gay marriage,atheists and an assortment of progressive liberals and left wing activists. However, when you are right, your right. it is what you said it is,"A LIE." Pax
Get real Mildred, what function in society does gay marriage put forth? Zero! No function whatsoever.
ReplyDeleteMarriage between men and women is a pre-political, naturally emerging social institution. Men and women come together to create children, independently of any government. Hence, this explains its standing as an uncontroversial common law liberty. By contrast, same-sex ‘marriage’ is completely a creation of the state. Same-sex couples cannot have children. Someone must give them a child or at least half the genetic material to create a child. The state must detach the parental rights of the opposite-sex parent and then attach those rights to the second parent of the same-sex couple.
ReplyDeleteWow Mildred:
ReplyDeleteyou've just proven how inclusive, tolerant and open-minded you are! And, presumably, whatever 'side' you're on!
Thanks!
We are suppossed to treat them like everyone else though right? With dignity, respect, lack of judgment, etc. Hate the sin, not the sinner. Why was there no reflection on that in this piece?
ReplyDeleteI recognize that as gay marriage is a significant legal issue right now, there of course would be a lot of discussion on that from Catholic sources as to Church teaching, etc. I have no problem with that. But when we single out homosexuals as the only sexual sinners, I am grossly uncomfortable with my Church.
The fact of the matter is many of my Catholic friends who are my age are having premarital sex and we still welcome them into our pews (sometimes with illegitimate children in tow). We don't cry out against the fact that white often means nothing in our Catholic weddings these days or that pre-Cana classes are often a hoop some couples plow through in order to get married in the Church. These are just as much an affront to the Church's teachings on human sexuality, but we let them slide. Just the gays, who never wanted to be gay in the first place - those are the ones we carry on about!
I am a struggling young Catholic and this is what kills me and others in my position - this type of reflection seems horribly misguided to me. Why not explain the theology behind the teaching, as there are many who still do not understand it. Why not link to Courage and other (are there any other) Catholic groups that are attempting to minister to homosexuals and bring them back into the fold. Why not offer some thoughts on how to interact with gay couples, or your hetersexuals friends who are having premarital sex - many young adult Catholics these days encounter both on a day to day basis. It's far too easy to stand at a pulpit and decry what's going on - much harder if you are living it and struggling with how to be a reflection of Jesus to everyone who is sinning, including yourself.
It always amazes me when openly homosexuals get upset when others don't accept their actions in public. You can‘t ’practice‘ open homosexuality (sin) and ’practice’ Christianity at the same time. You either repent your sin and try to live a chaste life or flaunt your sin and reject the teachings of Christianity. It’s just that simple. Homosexuality is not about love it is about sexual behavior. A behavior that is not accepted by practicing Christians.
ReplyDelete@ Hip. I can appreciate your thought on the matter but I have a few questions. How many others are pushing to have laws recognize them as legitimate? How many others are pushing laws to make it part of the curriculum to teach children about sex, gay sex and every other kind of sex? How many others are pushing laws to make it legal for older men to have sexual relations with adolescents? I would recommend better educating yourself. The gay agenda is not stopping itself at just having "marriage" recognized between two people of the same sex. It goes a lot further. This is only the beginning. Already, Christianity is being persecuted for it's stance on homosexuality.
ReplyDeleteMike, I think Christianity is being persecuted for it's stance on homosexuality and it's doctrine of forgiveness. Hardcore Homosexual Activists abhor forgiveness for their acts of homosexuality. They want their behavior applauded and accepted not forgiven. They are driven by their addiction and despise the idea that they can control and change their behavior. It is like any addict, until ready to confront their addiction they attack everyone who disapproves. The church needs to treat homosexuality like any other addiction. We treat the person with love and help them learn to forgive themselves and control their additions. We do not have alcoholics present themselves drunk at Mass because it is disrespectful. Same applies to open homosexuality.
ReplyDeleteSome people think that if they can change the laws, they will change what people think. Maybe that works on some people, but I think the fact that about half our nation is still anti-abortion almost 40 years after Roe v. Wade, anyone would have to be grossly naive to think that simply by making homosexual unions legal, all the world would simply accept them as the same as a heterosexual union.
ReplyDeleteAmen, Fr Longenecker!
ReplyDeleteMike - thanks for your questions and response.
ReplyDeleteAs I said in my initial post, I can understand and would welcome responses to the current legal challenges and even cultural shifts that are taking place. I am not arguing against the premise of this post, or against clearly and consistently stating Church doctrine - indeed, I am not looking for anything that bends or twists Church teaching to try and suit another agenda.
Unmarried heterosexual couples don't have to push for laws to say they are legitimate because they pretty much already exist. Society, including the Catholic Church, barely bats an eye at that cultural shift anymore. When people argue that the Church is bigoted on this issue, I think they have a valid claim in this: we state sex before marriage is just as offensive to our teachings as homosexual relations but we don't even come close to speaking out against that as we do against homosexuality. Why is that?
I'm just not sure how this post furthers the teaching and understanding in any fruitful way. Homosexuality is bad. We who would read this blog all know that already.
As an aside, I do think it is pretty unfair to lump every gay person together as you have, insinuating that they all are pushing the same agenda. They are not.
Finally, in full disclosure, I am a struggling young Catholic. I actively considered leaving the Church a few months ago, but fortunately had a change of heart thanks to the Eucharist. I am trying to broaden my understanding of Church teaching, working to accept even those teachings that I struggle with, and struggling to learn how I can put my faith into practice everyday even with those who do not agree with me or my Church.
I think there's a degree to which homosexuals are merely being scapegoated by Catholics and other Christians. The truth is more along the lines of what Hip has said. Heterosexual marriage in our secular society is no longer understood under a natural law formulation; instead, heterosexual marriage is widely seen as a compact between two loving individuals. With this widespread understanding, it really is only prejudice that would deny that compact to homosexuals.
ReplyDeleteI think that the battle cannot be won by standing on soapboxes and telling everyone that homosexuality is a sin, and that they can't participate in a marriage as it is construed under natural law, because quite frankly they do not share either our Catholic faith nor do they accept the natural law definition. What is needed is a new synthesis to engage with the postmodern west, and to bring natural law back into relevancy.
As a final note, I don't think that legislation extending civil marriage to homosexuals is all that bad. Laws are meant to be consummate with the people ruled.
I write more about this issue at http://sicetnonderful.blogspot.com/2011/09/aquinas-natural-law-and-homosexual.html
To Hip and Mike:
ReplyDeleteHip,
Your posts about gay marriage and the lack of stigma for sexually active heterosexual couples with interest as this is an issue I recently addressed with my high school sophomore theology students. The Catholic Church DOES NOT teach that being a homosexual is a sin. In the Catechism, we are told to treat them with dignity, respect, and compassion, just as we would any other child of God. What is sinful is acting on homosexual impulses, just as it is sinful to act on heterosexual impulses outside of marriage. Because we, as Catholics, believe that marriage was instituted by God (Adam and Eve) between a man and a woman and raised to a Sacrament by Christ (the wedding at Cana), we do not have the right or authority to change who can participate in marriage. That is why homosexual marriage is not sanctioned by the Church. In terms of spiritual consequences, a heterosexual couple who engages in intercourse before marriage is guilty of a mortal sin, just as a homosexual couple is. Both can be forgiven if true repentance is present. It is true that homosexuals are often more harshly stigmatized than heterosexuals for their private behavior, but that doesn't mean that sex outside of marriage isn't as serious as a homosexual couple engaging in intimate relations. Both are serious sins and both have serious consequences.
Mike,
You make an interesting argument about natural law and the secularization of American society. You also said: " I don't think that legislation extending civil marriage to homosexuals is all that bad. Laws are meant to be consummate with the people ruled." If the laws did reflect what the people ruled, as it should be in any society claiming to be at all democratic, that would be one thing. But what has happened in most situations is that judges have legislated from the bench without reference to the will of the people. When the will of a minority suppresses the will of the majority, you no longer live in a democracy.
Perhaps I am oversimplifying.
ReplyDeleteBut, let me suggest this for consideration.
While hetero couples that are cohabitating without the sacrament of marriage and/or produce children that are not in the church, they at least, have the opportunity to repent and regularize their relationships with each other and the Church. Homo couples cannot do either.
I think there is a fundamental misunderstanding of man and womens relation to God by trying to justify homo unions by using sinning hetero couples. Pardon me but that is comparing apples to oranges.
As for the different reactions to homosexual and heterosexual sins, I think there are two reasons.
ReplyDeleteThe first reason is that we each have a tendency to think that those sins to which we feel no temptation are SURELY worse than those sins which in which we indulge. So, if my neighbor gossips (which does not interest me) and I over-eat, it's easy to tell myself that gossiping is a much worse sin than over-eating. Most people are not tempted to homosexual acts, so it's easy to judge those who fall into those sins.
The second reason is a bit better, though. All other things being equal, heterosexual acts -- even in a sinful context -- conform to nature more than homosexual acts.
As a result, a healthy society, though beset by every kind of temptation, will not prominently feature homosexual acts. When homosexuality becomes prominent, it really indicates a much more serious problem in the society's morals. Ironically, this is somewhat similar to the secondary infections that can be a symptom of AIDS; everyone is exposed to the germs, but they only develop into an infection in someone with a seriously compromised immune system, and that is a bigger problem than the infection itself.
CR - I think I would enjoy your class! I have made a concerted effort to read the Church's teachings on this issue as it is very important to me and was a main reason I was considering leaving the Church. I know the words, but I am still learning a lot about the theology and tradition behind them (which again was not really addressed here). Where I continue to have concern is this: I went to a young adult meeting at a Church last year. There was a unmarried couple there, who live together and have a child. They were wonderful people and I was glad to have met them. But there was no sense that the lives they were currently living were wrong. I kept thinking what the reaction would be if a homosexual couple showed up? Probably polite uncomfortableness, with an email that followed requesting they not come back. Why do we rail against one sin so much more than the other? Is it just because homosexuality goes against natural law (although if you accept gays are born gay, then it's not unnatural to them)? This concerns me.
ReplyDeleteAs an aside, I'm not sure of your age, but I think you might find divergent views of what society wants depending on generation. Almost every young Catholic I know (small sample size, not trying to generalize) supports gay marriage. Many have pretty much left being an active member of the Church. Many just find Church's that don't spend much time focusing on this. I think the Church can be clear and unwavering in their teachings on this matter without driving these individuals away - which is what I think posts like these do.
I think that some of us need to decide what homosexuality is before we make declarations about homosexual people. Is it a lifestyle choice? Is it an illness or an addiction that can be treated and "cured" as much as we try to with gambling or alcoholism? Is it in itself a sin?
ReplyDeleteIf the answer is "No" to these questions - as I believe it must be - what are we left with but to believe that an apparently steady percentage of human beings is born with a sexual preference for their own sex? That preference makes its presence felt within an individual as adolescence moves towards adulthood - just as the majority of males and females are deciding which bits of the opposite sex they find most attractive.
What are we to say, then? That God made us this way but he didn't make them that way? Surely that's nonsense? But if God made some people homosexual - but still built into them the instinctive urge to have sex that all mammals have - can we then turn to them and say that actually to follow their sexual urges is sinful?
Notice, please, that I am not defending the promiscuous, the sexual predators or those who exploit others - whatever their sex or orientation. I do however agree with what I think Hip was suggesting, that theological reflection should take precedence over kneejerk reaction.
Hip,
ReplyDeleteThe situation with the young unmarried couple with a child is a familiar one to me, as I know/have known several couples in that situation. In addition, some of my best friends are gay. As a Catholic, I don't condone either relationship. But as a Catholic, I don't condemn/judge them, either. God judges everyone, regardless of their sexuality, and I'm more than happy to leave that to Him. I love them because they are my friends and they love me because I am theirs. The problem that you have been facing - at least as I understand it - isn't so much Catholic teaching on the issue of homosexuality as it is the way in which some Catholics deal with the matter. Many people are uncomfortable with homosexuality because, regardless of whether or not homosexual impulses are natural to those who have them, it is contrary to natural law and the laws that have governed society for thousands of years. I'm not saying that those reactions are fair. But the personal reactions that people have to homosexuality cannot be blamed on the Church. As I said in my previous post, the Church does not condemn a person for being homosexual any more than it condemns a person for being heterosexual. Homosexuals are to be treated with love, respect, and compassion. The problem comes when two homosexual people act on those feelings in a physical way.
That brings us to the next issue: sex. The gift of sexual intercourse was given to mankind for two reasons. The first is the procreation of children - the act by which a man and a woman participate in the act of creation with God. The second is to deepen the bond that exists between a man and a woman after they stand in front of God, their family, friends, and the world and dedicate themselves to each other for the rest of their lives. It is the ultimate expression of love, commitment, and joy. The problem is that most people today don't see it that way. Sex is something you do to feel good or it's something that people do when they like each other. In that sense, sex should be permissible between any two beings. But that's not what it's about. Regardless of how two gay people feel about each other, they will never achieve either purpose of the act. It isn't just about sensation. It's about physical compatibility and the openness to new life.
As for those people who have left the Church over this issue, they are certainly in my prayers. I think a lot of that might have to do with a real misunderstanding about what the Church teaches on the issue, or perceiving a lack of compassion in members of the Church. It is completely possible to be a (celibate) homosexual and still be a faithful member of the Catholic Church. Education is the key to this issue, there is no question about that. I hope this has helped and God bless you for continuing to grow in your faith.
A homosexual orientation is not sinful, but it IS disordered.
ReplyDeleteHomosexual acts ARE sinful, regardless of context. Gay sex is bad.
You are defined by your actions and choices, not your desires.
Being born with an orientation, or finding oneself conditioned towards an orientation, does not mean it comes from God, any more than being inclined to like children makes pedophilia a God-sent condition.
We moderns have made very complicated what no generation before found remotely so. A gay orientation is a cross to bear if it cannot be lessened or shaken to the point of a heterosexual life. Many repercussions from the Fall dog us. That is one. It is a disordered condition and a gravely sinful act when translated into sexual behavior.
Because it is unnatural it is a more serious sin than fornication, so comparisons with fornicating couples don't hold water.
Gays are people too, of course, and deserve respect and dignity like all. Mildred's typically female response shaming homophobia is warranted if this is what she is trying to emphasize. 'They' ARE like us. We are all seasick and all in the same boat. But their sexual lives, and the futile game to pretend to marriage and families, is NOT "like" us, and Fr. is right to point that out. Genital sex was intended to be a complimentarian affair, not a same sex jerk off. Gay sex as an activity is offensive to God and man in any context, despite societal blessings. If the Church has been wrong on so basic a teaching as sex, really and truly what on earth can it ever be trusted on. And if it is not evident from natural law that gay sex is unnatural, really nothing is evident. Men intuitively know know this until females attempt to schoolmarm them into loving acceptance go gays. And all the wonderful gay sons, daughters, priests, couples etc in the world can't change the facts. Having an affliction or choosing a life course based on it does not make it noble or good. The gay condition is a tragedy. People with that condition can have a non-tragic life through their choices, but those choices must be extremely intentional and against their desires. Hard truths. But healing ones. I know from countless scenarios.
ALso, Wolfhart Pannenberg wrote an essay on this years ago for Christianity Today. "Can Love Ever BE Sinful?" Worth the read:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.presbycoalition.org/Pannenberg%20PDF.pdf
Thanks to all for your thoughts.
ReplyDeleteHoward - I think your second reason is probably spot on. I have a bit of trouble when the Church seemingly tries to use biology (nature) to explain this though, but perhaps I am misunderstanding what the teaching really is. Practically every other species exhibits homosexual activity for a variety of different reasons. While obviously in humans same gender sex cannot lead to the propagation of the species, which seems to be the be all and end all of Catholic sexual teaching, it is not unnatural when compared to every other living God made creature (who presumably do not have the brain capacity to wrestle with the moral implications).
CR and JM - the Church's teachings on sex are the key of course. I am a family physician and work in a very urban/poor area. It doesn't take a genius to see that if people followed what the Church is preaching in this regard, the lives of my patients would be vastly better - there is, of course, profound wisdom in what the Church teaches. But biology shows us that sexual intercourse is profoundly healthy. Anxiety and depression are reduced, longevity is increased, etc. Couples with healthy sex lives tend to stay together more often than other couples, which in and of itself leads to lower rates of anxiety/depression and increased longevity, etc. Certainly not everyone who has sex lives happily to their 90s, and not everyone who is celibate dies miserable in their 60s. But sex is healthy and it certainly is pleasurable. I don't think we should reduce the act to those two facts alone (I love Church teaching on sexuality in numerous ways) but sometimes it seems the Church glazes over that.
I'm really not trying to change Church teaching, I"m just not there yet on this issue.
Also - JM, not sure why you are trying to insinuate that it is women who are the only voices crying out for acceptance of homosexuality. I would laugh if I wasn't offended.
@ Hip. There is definitely a difference and not speaking as a theologian, degrees in sin.
ReplyDeleteYou are right, though, not every gay person is pushing the gay agenda and I was not insinuating that "every" gay person was. Gay culture as a whole is working diligently and aggressively to have this agenda legitimized. President Obama included it in his speech to the U.N. :“No country should deny people their rights to freedom of speech and freedom of religion, but also no country should deny people their rights because of who they love, which is why we must stand up for the rights of gays and lesbians everywhere,”. If the President, the leader of the free world, makes such proclamations, where does it leave Christians who believe homosexual acts to be a sin?
Flyingvic - you stated that "if God made some people homosexual - but still built into them the instinctive urge to have sex that all mammals have - can we then turn to them and say that actually to follow their sexual urges is sinful?"
ReplyDeleteHomosexuality was removed by the American Psychiatric Society as a mental disorder around the 1970's for political reasons. Considering that the biological function of sex is to procreate, it makes sense that homosexuality is disordered, not sinful, just disordered. There have also been identical twin studies done where if one twin is homosexual, the other twin has only a 50% likelihood of being a homosexual also. So it seems clear that homosexuality relates to the mind.
I also saw a panel discussion on EWTN that included a psyciatrist who worked with boys and young men with same sex attractions. If i remember right, the panel agreed that the disorder was tied to identifying with a female or females along with the lack of a connection with or a feeling of rejection by the father. There was apparently much success when treating teenagers and boys, but not so much success with the adults. I was wondering if that had to to with the hardwiring of the brain as a person ages.
You also mentioned sex and animal instincts. I was always taught that we, above all of the other mammals, were gifted with the ability to reason, and that because of this great gift we were not doomed to be controlled by our instincts. Do we want to be mere animals, or not?
@Hip,
ReplyDeleteIf you're in a location with multiple parishes, it might make sense to find a more conservative parish; where I am, the priest is scandalized if a couple is living together and wants to be married at the church. I don't mean that in a bad way, just that here, doctrine is clear and they talk about sin in homilies and expect that people will abide by Church teaching.
When I was in college I couldn't abide the Newman Center and went to Mass at a beautiful church with solid doctrine.
The Church calls all of us who are unmarried to chastity; the trouble is that society teaches us otherwise so we question the Church, rather than focusing on Truth.
If you recall, a man named Joseph, learned that his betrothed was with child and, scandalized was going to leave her, until an angel intervened, telling him that Mary was with child, conceived by the Holy Spirit. This tells you that the call to chastity in the unmarried predates the Church.
While sin has been with us since the Fall of Adam and Eve, technology has changed the world greatly, separating sex from love and family, to society's detriment.
Culturally, we're focused on transient pleasures, rather than Heaven as we should be. Adoration can help you focus on God. If your parish doesn't have Adoration, just go sit in front of the Tabernacle; He's there and would love to see you.
I agree: If you buy the lie you work for the wrong guy
ReplyDeleteWell, Father, nice job of making us all scared of those dangerous, insidious gay folks. What strange creatures they are for wanting to be treated in a respectful and hospitable manner when they have booked and paid for a vacation. They really ARE different from normal folks, aren't they? (Yes, you can rightly charge me with sarcasm there.) You have taught the faithful once again that gay people aren't as good as everyone else. They're not the "same" as everyone else. (Are priests the same as everyone else? Are gardeners the same as everyone else? What exactly does it mean to be "the same" as everyone else?)
ReplyDeleteKeep in mind that propagandists throughout history have used that tactic. That group over there -- you all know in your heart that they aren't the same as the rest of us, don't you?
Don't think that tactic has actually been used before? Reread your history and see how dehumanizing language was used to make Europeans not feel too guilty about their decision to own slaves. Or look at a place such as Bob Jones University, where a segregationist mentality prohibited interracial dating as recently as the 1980s because, well, "those folks" weren't the same as "our type of folks." And then there's the crap that the Nazis put into the system on a daily basis. (Yes, that's right, I went there.) Dehumanizing people -- saying, "They really are not the same as everyone else" -- is the very first step on the road to saying, "They're not equal to us," which is a step on the road to figuring out what we must do in order to solve the problem.
No, Father: I do not think you want to see people who are gay or lesbian put into ovens. I do not think you believe in genocide. But I do think you make it all too easy for others -- those who are willing to inflict physical harm on people, the type of harm that Matthew Sheppard suffered -- to convince themselves that "those folks aren't like us folks"...and therefore those folks aren't the equal of us folks.
After all, the good padre said they weren't "the same" as everybody else. Meaning, I guess, the normal, healthy, straight folks, many of whom have lots of logs in their own eyes. But never mind. Go on and dehumanize people you don't even know. What's the worst that could happen, after all?
\\A key fits into a lock to open a door. A lock does not fit into a lock--if you catch my meaning.\\
ReplyDeleteThere is more to any marriage than sex.
\\When homosexual couples claim that they "are like everyone else" it's simply a lie. \\
Apparently, you don't know many homosexuals.
Actually, Father, you do. You just don't know who they are.
"A key fits into a lock to open a door. A lock does not fit into a lock--if you catch my meaning."
ReplyDeleteMy way of refering to the same idea is that two penises don't intersect. ;)
Amen Father! Preach it!
ReplyDeleteNARTH MISSION STATEMENT
ReplyDeleteWe respect the right of all individuals to choose their own destiny. NARTH is a professional, scientific organization that offers hope to those who struggle with unwanted homosexuality. As an organization, we disseminate educational information, conduct and collect scientific research, promote effective therapeutic treatment, and provide referrals to those who seek our assistance.
Highly recommend www.narth.com
NARTH upholds the rights of individuals with unwanted homosexual attraction to receive effective psychological care and the right of professionals to offer that care. We welcome the participation of all individuals who will join us in the pursuit of these goals.
NARTH agrees with the American Psychological Association that "biological, psychological and social factors" shape sexual identity at an early age for most people.
But the difference is one of emphasis. We place more emphasis on the psychological (family, peer and social) influences, while the American Psychological Association emphasizes biological influences--and has shown no interest in (indeed, a hostility toward) investigating those same psychological and social influences.
There is no such thing as a "gay gene" and there is no evidence to support the idea that homosexuality is simply genetic. However, biological influences may indeed influence some people toward homosexuality; recent studies point to prenatal-hormonal influences, especially in men, that result in a low-masculinized brain; also, there may be genetic factors in some people -- both of which would affect gender identity, and therefore sexual orientation. But none of these factors mean that homosexuality is normal and a part of human design, or that it is inevitable in such people, or that it is unchangeable.
Numerous examples exist of people who have successfully modified their sexual behavior, identity, and arousal or fantasies.
Thanks for standing up for the Truth, Father and exposing the lie of homosexual/lesbian marriage. I find it hard to understand why so many people, Catholics included, have fallen for this most pernicious of sin and accepted the culture's view that we should be "open and accepting" of the homosexual lifestyle--(i.e. the sin of sodomy).
ReplyDeleteI for one, will never accept that lie! When we preach or explain, or defend the Church's teaching on traditional, Christian marriage, we are being charitable to those who have fallen into this sinful condition. Their failure to repent, will lead them to Hell and it is our job to save sinners. If the refuse, then their eternal fate is due to their conscious rejection of the Truth and willingness to continue in the lie.
For an excellent article on the devastating effects of the homosexual agenda in our society, please read this article and print it out: http://www.massresistance.org/docs/marriage/effects_of_ssm.html
O Mary Conceived Without Sin, pray for us, who have recourse to thee! Jesus and Mary, save sinners!
Hip, you're arguing for logical consistency in Catholic attitudes to sexuality. The Magesterium has been entirely consistent, bishops and priests (and lay Catholics) a long way from it. It is illogical, and entirely unreasonable, to argue against homosexuality if one permits of, or tacitly accepts through never identifying and condemning it, the acceptability of contraceptive heterosexual sex. Indeed, it looks like baseless squeamishness to argue otherwise.
ReplyDeleteElizabeth Anscombe wrote about exactly this in her essay 'Contraception and Chastity' back in 1972, as part of her work on intentionality. It's all over the web:
http://www.orthodoxytoday.org/articles/AnscombeChastity.php
It is essential reading.
A most excellent post Father...concise and to the point.
ReplyDeleteYou also have some very good teachers in your com-box on Church teaching...what a joy.
God bless you!!!!
Homosexuality "genetic"? As in "passed down from generation to generation"? Well it wouldn't be, would it?
ReplyDeleteI am glad they had a hard time. It shows temporal punishment is still working, or the Natural Order is still the Natural Order.
ReplyDeleteI am glad they had a hard time. It shows temporal punishment is still working, or the Natural Order is stile the Natural Order.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteJack it is true that in marriage there is more than just se, BUT you just don't marry everything you love like you mother, father,siblings, friends, your own kids
ReplyDelete, your pets, couch, car etc. ;)
To CR and others:
ReplyDeleteBe very careful in what you say, particularly when you say things like "being homosexual isn't a sin." Let that sink in for a moment. What you (and, sadly, the new catechism) are implying by this, whether you mean to or not, is that people can be "born" that way, a notion both ludicrous and monstrous.
No one is "born" with a sexual perversion, whether homo or hetero. It is a choice made of the free will. No one is born a thief, a murderer, an adulterer; these are choices. Granted, these choices are sadly made easier by some who have experienced tragedies, like adolescents being the victims of buggery which may warp them for decades. But to say "God made me that way" is a horrendous blasphemy and one that will not go unpunished.
And the liberals in the Catholic Church who promote this fantasy called "orientation", which is vague enough to encompass the idea of a sodomite being born that way, are just as guilty, perhaps more so, as the pagan culture that promotes these horrors.
So be very careful in how you phrase things. Never subscribe to the outrageous belief that one can be born a sexual miscreant. Only in our dumbed-down, Hollywoodized modern culture could such nonsense even be considered for a moment. Try telling Aquinas that one can be born a homosexual.
And, people: stop debasing that perfectly innocent word "gay". There is nothing gay about this most unpeakable evil.
Hip, the Church teaches about all kinds of sexual sin, including homoseauality, adultery, fornication, etc. The problem is that homosexuals are trying to convince people that it is just another "lifestyle", when in fact it goes against nature. Normal sex results in the creation of life, homosexual sex does not. It is the homosexuals who are getting in our face with sometimes violent behavior. BTW, do you know of any adulterers who are trying to convince us that their behavior is normal?
ReplyDelete"A key fits into a lock to open a door." That is simple and beautiful metaphor that teaches the simple and beautiful and natural truth regarding marriage. May I use it in the future?
ReplyDeleteI will pray for you Father as your attackers gather and malign you. May the Word of God always be on your lips.
Hip: Good for you. When I returned to the Church there were lots of things I didn't understand. But I said to myself, "Maybe the smartest, holiest, most amazing people for the last 2000 years were on to something." You don't have to understand everything at once, you just have to accept that there is something more to understand.
ReplyDeleteI know what you mean about this post, but you also have to remember that not every post on marriage and homosexuality has to be a long, reasoned explanation of every aspect of the issue. This post is about two people who were upset that they weren't treated like everyone else, when they weren't acting like everyone else. It's a simple point and didn't need a treatise. As far as heterosexual misbehavior goes... you're right, it's a big mess. Our country -- the entire West -- is paying the price for it. We are late to come to the defense of marriage, but better late than never. And not commenting about one wrong does not mean you can't comment on another.
Finally, I think you're wrong about no one batting an eye about couples living together. Plenty of people disapprove. Plenty of young couples end up shocked to find that some people disapprove of them, that some clergy won't marry them, that some people won't treat their boyfriend or girlfriend like a spouse because he or she isn't a spouse. It happens all the time, even though more and more laws are enacted to make sure it doesn't. You wouldn't need a law to, say, mandate that a co-habiting person gets the healthcare benefits of a spouse if plenty of companies and institutions didn't want to give the benefits to non-spouses.
Perhaps, like many young people, you mostly hear from other young people who are similar to you in income and education level. The diversity of opinions, views, religions, morals, and habits in our country is HUGE. You have to start listening for it, though, because you won't see it on television or in the movies. You have to meet lots of people to start finding out that we're really not all the same. It took me along time to realize this and now I find people so interesting!!!!
@Aged Parent
ReplyDeleteAre people born with concupiscence? Yes. We all face temptations; even Christ was tempted. We do not, however, all face the same temptations; I have never been tempted by the Devil to turn a stone into bread. The temptations we face are a consequence of sin, but they are not in themselves sinful.
It is a fact that the proportion of men with two Y chromosomes (XYY) is higher in prison than in the general public. This is not surprising; with two Y chromosomes they produce too much testosterone, and that causes them to suffer more intense and prolonged temptations to risky and/or violent behavior. They go to prison for what they do, not for what they feel, but there is a real biological reason for the feelings that tempt them to actions for which they are punished.
All of that is pretty noncontroversial. Why then is it so hard to see that for some people biological (probably hormonal) conditions subject them to homosexual temptation?
It would be very naive to think that ALL homosexuality is rooted in biology. I suspect that whenever homosexuality becomes prominent, as it is now in the West, it is because an unusually large number of people take it up for the thrill of rebellion: against their parents, against their culture, against nature, against God. But at all times and in all places, there will be some whose biology provides the temptation.
S. Ellis says: "Heterosexual marriage in our secular society is no longer understood under a natural law formulation; instead, heterosexual marriage is widely seen as a compact between two loving individuals."
ReplyDeleteare you saying that if one doesn't like the meaning, just change the definition? (one sees the same kind of rationalization with the terms abortion and murder). I believe that Fr. Z is not hating the sinner, but the sin. It is the sin of "homosexual MARRIAGE" that is wrong. I don't hate homosexuals nor do I hate heterosexuals engaging in sex outside of marriage, but I do not support the sinfulness of those relationships. We are all called to chastity appropriate to our station in life. If you are unwed (or wedded to God, as religious are), then you are called to celibacy (which means no masturbation nor fornication). Married couples are also called to avoid the sin of masturbation and are to be faithful to their spouses. Do I feel badly that there are homosexuals and they are not allowed the pleasures of physical love? No more than I feel badly for heterosexuals who simply haven't found the right person to wed. There are many forms of love. Physical love is only one part of the equation. And all are welcome in the church, but their unrepented sin is not. The main difference is that it is a bit more obvious that a homosexual couple is living in sin, than a heterosexual couple. But the Church does not accept either sin. I've seen gay pride parades and demonstrations, but I've never seen a "heterosexuals living in sin pride parade". I've also never seen a call for a "heterosexuals living in sin pride Mass". Praying for all.
@Hip: I can appreciate your struggle with trying to come to grips with how the Church (and the Church members) should be treating others. There's lots of venom that is spewed in many blogs, political campaigns, etc. But one thing you said struck me, and I hope I can help you to understand. You mention that you thought we are supposed to treat sinners with "lack of judgment". That is true in that we are not in a position of judge - only our Lord has that position. We are however called to correct those who have done wrong. In our society, people don't like being corrected and they refer to that as being judged. The two are not interchangeable. My apologies that I don't know the Bible verses offhand, I am a Catholic after all :) Stick with the Church. If you leave because of the actions of some individual members of the Body of Christ (including deacons, priests, and bishops), then Satan has won a greater victory. Why do you think there is so much dissent within the Church as well as from outside the Church. Satan places no obstacles in your path :)
ReplyDeleteFor the life of me, cannot understand why anyone would think homosexuality is a choice. Not sexual experimentation, not rebellious activity against parents, not confused actions by one previously abused, not anything that isn't true homosexuality - which obviously can be a choice. True homosexuals do not choose to be so, and to even question that they do shows a profound lack of understanding and disrespect for those who struggle with it.
ReplyDeleteGail - thanks for your support. I'll need all the prayers I can get on this issue trust me.
jtm - don't know many adulterers fortunately, but the ones I do know don't seem to think they did anything wrong. And since in our society they are free to divorce and remarry as many times as they like, regardless of whom they hurt in the process, of course they are not clamoring for acceptance. We don't have any laws that indicate they are not accepted. At the end of the day, marriage is not considered by most a sacrament and society accepts that. From a purely secular legal standpoint I completely empathize with homosexuals who desire marriage.
This is a near impossible issue for me as a physician and biologist. This is the one area of Church teaching that does not seem consistent with science.
I'll continue to think and pray about this I assure you all. I appreciate everyone's input. However, I still maintain that this post is exactly what gives the Church a bad name. Some here will cheer that. I cannot.
Hip, You write, "I'm really not trying to change Church teaching, I"m just not there yet on this issue." I believe that. But having known so many people who have embraced a gay identity, what i witness is people do not stand still on this issue. In my experience, those who accept gay sex end up advocating for the Church to adjust its teaching. just my experience.
ReplyDeleteAs for "why [I] insinuate that it is women who are the only voices crying out for acceptance of homosexuality. I," the reason is also experience. Most men I know reflexively have a problem with it, whereas most women I know do not.
As for health reasons, I agree with all you wrote. Since you are a doctor, I imagine you know best, but my understanding is gay sex typically had detrimental long term consequences.
Best wishes in your struggle, most sincerely. I will share that people make it look like very few people who fight their gay inclinations are happy, but i was stunned to learn to families I know of who are faithful and happy have leaders who battle this condition and also live happy lives. So it is more than remotely possibly, if not that common.
@unknown - yes, thank you. What I asked for in my initial response was maybe this column would have been better if it included how you do exactly what you say - love the sinner, but point out the sin. I happen to have a significant amount of gay friends (many of whom were Catholic and sadly/obviously have now left). They are truly wonderful spectacular individuals who would have so much to offer our Church if they were reached out to and educated in any notable way rather than dealing with crud like this all the time - the insinuation that everything about them is a lie, including the fact they would never have chosen to be gay if it was in fact a choice!
ReplyDelete@Hip
ReplyDeleteYou're using a "no true Scotsman" argument. Specifically, you're saying that "no true homosexual chooses to be homosexual", so that if anyone habitually engages in homosexual acts due to a choice, he's not a "true homosexual".
JM - thanks you.
ReplyDeleteHoward - I'm a physician not a philosopher. I don't pretend to know much about logic other than my works. I know many gay people who have engaged in heterosexual acts, by choice, in an effort to change who they are. Are they heterosexuals then? No.
ReplyDeleteThis issue to me is like dying my hair. I sadly have gray hair (I'm only 30!). I dye it brown. I still have gray hair. I am not saying that human sexuality should be trivialized to the level of my salon choices, but I do think there is similarity in that you can window dress it if you want, but it's still there underneath. Gay people are born gay. Everyone who knows me knows I am a single celibate heterosexual Catholic. Why can't gay people admit they are single celibate homosexual Catholics? There is something intrinsic about homosexuals that we judge, regardless of whether they are trying to live the homosexual lifestyle or they are trying to follow Church teaching. That to me is a fault of our Church. We have a don't ask, don't tell policy even though we sorta try to say we believe God made you in His image, just apparently not every part of you...
I promise to stop talking now! I'm moving on to praying now.
@Hip
ReplyDeleteYou said, "I know many gay people who have engaged in heterosexual acts, by choice, in an effort to change who they are." Surely, then, you must realize that there will be some others who, for one reason or another, choose to engage in homosexual acts in spite of their personal inclinations? From there, the situation can become much more complicated; habit, self-justification, and other psychological factors can come into play. Clearly there are some people who have temptations to homosexual acts that are biological in origin, but equally clearly, there are other, non-biological sources of temptation. Those who fall into habitual homosexual sin for whatever reason may describe themselves as homosexual or "gay". So if you say that treatment does not help for true homosexuals because a true homosexual is someone for whom treatment does not help, you're not really saying anything useful.
By the way, I notice that in your statement you strongly imply that "homosexual" is not an adjective describing the person, it is "who they are". That is nonsense.
"Why can't gay people admit they are single celibate homosexual Catholics?"
ReplyDeleteWhy do you say they can't? Ever heard of Eve Tushnet?
I think many of the people who took offense at the original post here might go back and review it. Fr. Longenecker is referring to "homosexual couples" -- i.e., to people who are actively engaged in a homosexual relationship.
More specifically, he's addressing situations where "homosexual couples claim that they 'are like everyone else'" -- i.e., that there's nothing important that distinguishes them from heterosexual couples. This is a false philosophical claim aimed at a political end -- gay marriage -- and it should be vigorously opposed.
Nowhere does Father's post bash gays or even touch on the question of orientation.
Father, what if I have a gay or lesbian friend and they are Catholic, what should I do? Should I close my eyes pretend I didn't see anything or I need to say something to them? Thank you. Your post is really good.
ReplyDeleteI belief that homosexual intercourse is disgusting and immoral.
ReplyDeletekamagra