What they mean is that they think maybe I became a Catholic because I like stained glass windows and organ music and lighting candles and all that stuff. Or maybe I became a Catholic because I'm rebelling against BJU (wot at my age?) or that I had some sort of weird fizz pop in my brain that made me do something crazy, and that they hope it is nothing more than an eccentricity like if I had taken an interest in Native American folklore and started attending pow wows with a full feather head dress.
They could probably accept all that with a shake of the head and, "Well, he did go off and live in England for twenty five years, and that was sort of dumb to start with...I mean they don't even have good dentists in England!" But what really rocks the boat is when they ask in a conspiratorial whisper (as they look over their shoulders to see if anyone might over hear them) "Do you really pray to Mary?"
I've stopped beating around the bush and say, "Why sure I pray to Mary!" Then I explain that by 'pray' I mean I ask her for something. I don't worship Mary or adore Mary. But I ask her to pray with me and for me. I pray to Mary because in my experience she really is close to Jesus. There's a bond between them which is just as close and real and intimate as the bond between any mother and her child.
If it is a female I'm talking to and I know they are a mother I say, "You know you have a bond with your children that nobody else can really understand. Isn't that true?" They almost always nod knowingly. "Well, it's the same between Mary and Jesus, but even more so because she was a perfect mother and he was a perfect son."
"Whaddya mean perfect??" The Bible says "All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God." Mary was a sinner too. "Well, technically that's right. But she was a redeemed sinner. By virtue of her son's death on the cross, we believe God saved her from original sin, and preserved her from sin ever after that. That's why we think she's perfect--not perfect like Jesus is perfect--because he is the Son of God--but perfect like we will be perfect one day--perfectly restored, healed and forgiven."
"So you really pray to Mary? But she's not God."
"That's right, and we don't believe she's God either. That would be a blasphemy. We do believe that she is the highest of all created beings though. See, she was the Mother of God."
"Looky here. God does not have a Mother."
"You're right again. That's what we believe too. God the Father does not have a Mother, but God the Son does, doesn't he? You do believe that Jesus is God in human form don't you?"
"I guess."
"Well, Mary was his mother right?"
"Uh huh."
"So that makes Mary the Mother of God. Not the Mother of God the Father. The mother of God the Son."
"You're just being tricky."
"Not really. I'm just explaining what we really believe. So if she is so close to Jesus, then we ask her to pray for us. See, when you think about it, you wouldn't have Jesus without Mary would you?"
"Well..."
"So if you can't have Jesus without Mary, then you can't have Jesus without Mary."
"You're talking in riddles."
"Not really. I just mean that historically you never could have had Jesus without Mary, so why do you Protestants think you can have Jesus without Mary now? We Catholics wonder why you all get so hung up on this. Jesus said, "Behold your Mother." Why are you so hard hearted? Don't you love your Mother? See, praying to Mary is also just a way to spend time with my Mother."
"You're kidding me right?"
"No."
"Listen, do you want a piece of pie? Let me get you a piece of this cherry pie right here that Aunt Sally made. It is so good..."
Father, I have found that one of the biggest stumbling blocks in trying to explain our "praying to Mary" is that protestants do not have knowledge of theological doctrine of "the communion of saints" We Catholics take it for granted that we the body of Christ is all the living and dead. Protestants do not understand this concept as there is nothing in their theology that concerns the dead. So, until they understand the "communion of saints", they can not understand our praying to Mary.
ReplyDeleteI agree- no concept of the communion of saints. And in addition, the Protestant concept of worship is almost entirely "prayer" and they don't understand that word had varied meanings--the original of which was, to ask, nicely ('pray, pass the salt, please..."). Because all prayer is worship the Protestant churches, they can't distinguish prayer that ISN'T worship, but merely conversation among the kinfolk.
ReplyDeleteBeing a convert myself, I understand your point, Father, about having to explain "pray". Most Protestants equate prayer with worship; we understand that the word means "to ask". Prayer to God is an important part of worship, but it does not preclude prayer to others that is not itself worship.
ReplyDeleteI find it helpful to explain to my Protestant friends that they do the same thing when they ask their friends and churchmates to pray for them and their causes--they are invoking intercessory prayer! We merely recognize that the Church includes those on both sides of earthly death and ask those who have gone before us and are close to God to pray for us; the question then becomes, why don't they?
Fr. L-neck.
ReplyDeleteWhy is it that folks who think we should never talk to Mary as though it is some-type of necromancy seem to habitually talk to they're dead grandparents, talk to gravestones in graveyards, and the like?
Why is it that folks who say it is a hiss out of hell to talk to Mary and adore Her, are the first to believe in ghosts?
Why are they the first to get spooked, erstwhile publically denying the existence of the demonic, yet declaring themselves too spiritual for traditional religion?
Why do folks who declare themselves to be all-natural, organic and vegan, the first ones to hypocritically pump their women with chemical steroids and hormones to avoid what proceeds naturally from what comes naturally when a a woman rubs up against a man? And, if some life should proceed it's fleshly life is surgically snuffed out because it interferes with their lifstyles advocating for animal rights?
....And, I digress. Three more hours before I can have an ale.
+++
Forgive me Fathe for I cannot spell, and recieved a D-minus in English.
ReplyDeleteOdd. I never had a problem with the Blessed Virgin Mary.
ReplyDeleteI grew up a 'cultural Christian' and we were 'submarine Christians', surfacing once or twice a year in the one and only Methodist Church (before they got United!).
When I started attending an Episcopal Church that was somewhere between 'Broad and High' I naturally accepted "Mary" as part of the package. As I worked my way through to Catholicism then Eastern Orthodoxy and now back to Catholicism, never questions any of the Doctrines or Dogmas that the Church presents. I admit to having difficulties with certain Sacramental and Devotional things but those are optional and of personal preferences. So when I hear protestants have trouble with the Church and Mary I just don't understand it. Guess I was Blessed with Grace in this area.
I read a number of people complaining that the Mass had been ‘protestanised’ so I asked an Evangelical friend to have a look at the text and see if he was happy with it.
ReplyDeleteHe sent me the following reply:
How about:
“therefore I ask blessed Mary ever-Virgin,
all the Angels and Saints,
and you, my brothers and sisters,
to pray for me to the Lord our God. “
What evidence is there from Scripture that Mary remained a virgin after the birth of Jesus? Even if she did, is there such a thing a virgin in heaven where there are neither male nor female? Is not virginity (like marriage) a created order concept?
Second why would we ask Mary, the angels and the saints to pray for us when we can pray directly to God the Father ourselves? Jesus clearly taught his disciples when they prayed to address God directly and said that God knows our petition even before we ask.
I am so thankful for the communion of saints. SO many people will ask for prayers and say things like "we need to storm Heaven," and I do that every day when I ask all the angels and saints to pray with me and for me. At Mass we acknowledge that "their merits and prayers" are favorable to God, so why wouldn't I avail myself of those intercessors--especially since I am such a wretched creature who depends on their perfect
ReplyDeletecharity to help me along.
And when I read the bible I am always struck by how often God comes to man through his angels. They are on nearly every page. Why would anyone disregard their power? That would be like sending away a cleaning crew to say you could do it all on your own. Sure...if you want? I know I need all the help I can get and am not afraid to admit it.
If you pray to someone unseen, you worship that someone. Period! Mary receives NUMEROUS prayers at one time. She can't hear them all. God is omni-everything; Mary and every other man (except Yeshua) is omni-nothing. Look at this: 1) Even according to RCC theology, a 'Hail Mary' makes no sense. Just like a prayer to the infant Jesus, you'd need a time machine to pray to her when 'blessed is the fruit of your womb, Jesus' actually took place. [Yea, "Blessed are you among women," had to do with her being possibly the most blessed woman to walk this earth since she was chosen to give birth to the Christ, but "blessed is the fruit of your womb," had to do with God multiplying the people Israel for obedience (check Torah). Otherwise, it would be like saying, 'Blessed are you among woman since God chose you to carry the Messiah, and blessed are you among woman since God chose you to carry the Messiah.'] 2) If, "Behold, your mother," had to do with her being the mother of the church, then why didn't Jesus say it to the other Christians that were there instead of just John? 3) The Word says that we shouldn't contact the dead. Yet you say, 'Mary and the saints are living.' But open your mind up and look at the practice of veneration. OK, it takes a miracle to be declared 'blessed' and another to become a 'saint' ever since right around the turn of 1000 AD, right? Do you actually think every prayer offered to someone who wasn't yet declared even 'blessed' actually went to ONLY people in heaven? (You used to have to be declared 'venerable', but now you don't even have to be declared such anymore.) The practice itself puts you in a position to contact the dead even from a Catholic perspective. Remember, God wouldn't put you in a position to sin by contacting the dead. He is not the author of confusion. 4) It is written: "Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it." Look what was said right before Jesus said that statement. Very similar to the 'Hail Mary', no? So if the Word of God whether it be the bible or Jesus didn't command such a thing (and it or He didn't), then you're not hearing the word of God and obeying it.
ReplyDelete@michaeladdison, No, if you ask somebody you can't see to pray for you, you are not worshipping them. Let me ask you, is God the God of the dead or of the Living?
ReplyDeleteI ask Mary to pray for me because I know she will, just like I pray for my kids.
I must be really weird. I was raised a Fundamentalist, but Mary was not the stumbling block to me that she is to so many.
ReplyDeleteI always had the vague idea that various titles and devotions had attached to her over the ages as well-meaning mistakes that no one wanted to correct because it would sound like they were criticizing Mary herself, not the guy making the mistake. At some point, though, I picked up Mary and the Fathers of the Church, and it was obvious that my assumptions had been wrong. The Church Fathers were very careful about what they said; they backed it up from Scripture and Tradition; and they showed no hesitation whatsoever in calling somebody out who was in error. What's more, their arguments actually made sense.
As for her preservation from all stain of sin, my reaction, once I became convinced that there was good ground to believe it, was HALLELUIAH! I know how sinful I have been. I do not feel envious of her; I'm just delighted to know that, of my wretched species, there is at least one who never offended God. (John the Baptist never committed personal sin, either, but he was conceived with original sin.) We are not sinful merely because we are finite or have free will; sin is not a part of what it means to be human.
Yes, yes, Jesus is sinless, too, obviously. But I have no real hope of really understanding the hypostatic union; Jesus is true man, but He is not only man. The Blessed Virgin is truly human, and only human. For our sake it was fitting that God preserve one mere human from all stain of sin.
@anne: Is your heart that hardened? Did you not read what I said? Your comment OBVIOUSLY was based on reading my first sentence only, and then commenting. That said, feel free to read the whole comment before your two cents are given.
ReplyDeletemichaeladdison, why do you insist that those who are in heaven are dead, contrary to what the Bible clearly reveals that Jesus taught? Jesus clearly distinguished between what people commonly thought of as death, that is, physical death, from what he wanted us to take seriously, spiritual death. He often referred to physical death as falling asleep whereas eternal separation from God is the death He warned against in the story of the rich man and the beggar. You are absolutely right that prayer to a dead person (in Jesus's sense) would have no effect. You are dead wrong in that prayer to a person living in the Presence of the Eternal has great power.
ReplyDeleteFr D, I love the description. Somebody said that Protestants have amnesia when it comes to Mary.
ReplyDeleteOnly thing I don't get is praying through the Immaculate heart of Mary. Immaculate-no problem, it's praying through the heart I don't get. But I don't really get the Sacred Heart either.
@michael, No, I reread the whole thing, again. Penance. It is so disjointed and illogical that I decided to address only one thing. As for hard-hearted, maybe.
Jesus, I trust in you.
For me, Mary was one of the easiest things to accept actually.
ReplyDelete"...henceforth all generations shall call me blessed..."
Luke 1:48.
There you go.
I once to ask some of my (sadly former) protestant acquaintances why we haven't really ever called Mary "blessed" in several hundred years of protestantism even though it was in the Bible and we supposedly took every word of the Bible at face-value, they didn't have an answer.
I do not believe that Mary is dead, but is indeed the Queen Mother of Heaven for one simple reason: The Church Founded by God Almighty says she is.
Which is the same reason that I believe that Jesus of Nazareth walked out of that tomb 2000 years ago, it is because the Church founded by God Almighty said he did.
Which is the same reason I believe that when the priest says "this is my body and blood..." in regard to the bread and wine at Mass, it is because the Church founded buy God Almighty says it is.
If one is going to accept the idea of The Resurrection, which itself is a crazy idea which defies logic and even common sense, then one might as well accept the whole lot of what the Church teaches.
Just my two cents.
@deepoctave: Like anne, you obviously didn't read my whole comment.
ReplyDelete@anne: Wow! You admitted your heart is hardened. Oh, and reason is illogical to you? Why? That's right, because your heart is hardened.
Seriously, read my comment again. Do you ACTUALLY think all prayers to those whom aren't declared 'blessed' go to someone in heaven or 'purgatory'? If you do, then there's no need for beatification since everyone is a saint with that reasoning. Come on people, you ARE smarter than that.
@michaeladdison: Yes, I read your entire post. You make a number of points, each of which may be responded to independently. I'm not sure why you would object to someone responding in good faith to a particular point you raise rather than all of them in a single post. The time I am able to spend on this is too short to deal with every point you raised, although I hope someone else is able to take the time to do so.
ReplyDeleteIn this case, I was responding to your point 3) concerning the Old Testament prohibition against contacting the dead. Since you choose not to respond to what I said, I question how serious you are about the discussion.
I wish to say one more thing. My wife pointed out that my final comment, "You are dead wrong in that prayer to a person living in the Presence of the Eternal has great power.", was spoken in an uncharitable and antagonistic tone. Please forgive me if you perceived it that way. I really do believe such discussions should be conducted with love and respect for all involved.
You have my prayers. Only a sincere, wholehearted love for Jesus Christ will ever unite us.
Michaeladdison: the great majority of saint are never beatified. They're still saints.
ReplyDeleteShould have said the majority of saints aren't canonized or beatified. I think michaeladdison is under the impression that Catholics believe that the Church's declaring that a person is a saint actually makes him one, and so we should be worried about where our prayers 'go' if we pray to someone who isn't canonized or beatified. But I could be misreading him; it's not quite clear what he means.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteThis is a quote from "Made For More" by Curtis Martin re Mary, and is just one part of the argument for acknowledging her position and the fact that praying to her (i.e. making a request) to ask her to ask Jesus for something on our behalf, and is completely Scriptural:
ReplyDelete[ The Queen Mother
Another vital office in the Davidic kingdom was that of the queen mother. We are told in Scripture that each of the Davidic kings had a queen. What is unusual about the queen from our modern perspective is that the queen was never the wife of the king, but always his mother. Each royal mother, or gebirah, reigned with her son and had a primary role of bringing petitions before the king so that he could rule. Consider the following scene from Solomon's reign:
"So Bathsheba went to King Solomon, to speak to him on behalf of Adonijah. And the king rose to meet her, and bowed down to her; then he sat on his throne, and had a seat brought for the king's mother; and she sat on his right." (1 Kings 2:19)
The office of the queen mother is exemplified in this passage. The queen mother comes to her son, the king, in order to speak on behalf of another. The king honours his mother by rising to his feet as she enters the room and bowing before her. Even though he is king, she is still his mother and he is bound by the fourth commandment: Honour your father and mother. This honour shown the queen mother is extraordinary, as the king would not bow to anyone else. Even his wives were required to bow before him (1 Kings 1:16). The queen mother uses her position of honour to intercede for others. All members of the kingdom can bring their concerns before the king, but when his mother intercedes on their behalf, their petitions are elevated before him. ]
Curtis couldn't have put it better!
I have never understood the Liberal churches that pride themselves on women's rights, but anything to do with Mary is considered supreme blasphemy.
ReplyDelete